On an earlier post, which had some truly wacky comments, a Free-willer suggested that all Calvinists are going to Hell. This got me thinking:
How theologically wrong can a person be and still be saved?
Example: Does disbelief in the Holy Spirit disqualify you from heaven?
What if a person has made Christ your savior in a real and personal way, but believes that there are people who are good enough to get to heaven on their own merit?
What if another person has repented and believed in Jesus, but doesn’t think he is God?
What if a person doesn’t think that Jesus rose from the dead, or that he wasn’t sinless? Or that the Bible is not inspired by God?
Would any of these people go to heaven? Could all of them?
I have my own thoughts on this matter, but I’m interested to hear what others have to say.
24 comments
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May 28, 2009 at 11:31 am
JustMakingItUp
First of all, if Jesus’ command to “judge not” means anything at all, it has to cover this. I don’t think we are allowed to “judge” — i.e., decide — whether someone is saved or not. We can — and should! — decide whether to include someone in fellowship, based on belief and/or behavior, but his eternal destiny is in the Sovereign Hand of God.
I’m reminded of Lewis’ The Last Battle, in which a Calormene soldier who served the idol Tash all his life, and believed in him, and had been a good man, was forgiven, because “all service done unto Tash has been done unto Me”. While I don’t necessarily agree with Lewis’ soteriology, I do agree with him that “who does and does not get into Heaven is best left up to Him.”
Our business is to love one another. And for those who disagree with our doctrine — i.e., our “enemies” — we are required to love them.
I don’t know what level of orthodoxy is required to enter Heaven. I frankly don’t care, though I will spend whatever influence I have to convince others of the Truth. I suspect that many of us will be surprised, to say the least, by those we find in His Mansions. For my part, I am content to leave that determination in His Hands.
May 28, 2009 at 11:53 am
jamsco
Good point and obviously it is up to God to judge, but did not God give us scriptural clues as to how he would judge?
What if someone came up to you and sincerely asked you if he was going to heaven?
My son did this this week. I think it would have been wrong for me to say, “Sorry, it’s not up to me.”
May 28, 2009 at 11:56 am
jamsco
And I’ve discussed my dislike of the Tash part of last Battle in the comments here:
http://jamsco.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/friday-everything-the-last-battle-2/
May 28, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Andy
I’m definitely on board with the sovereignty of God in choosing who goes to heaven. I would say that those that God has chosen he has also given the gift of faith. Each of us is given a different measure of faith and that faith is ideally a mustard seed that is growing. The Holy Spirit is changing us into a greater likeness of the Son. So, what we say we believe one day may greatly change over time, especially as the Holy Spirit is working in us.
That said, I think that the saved will believe that 1) they are sinners; 2) God in Christ is their savior. I think those are the basics. I would struggle to put too many more on that list, but definitely could not remove one. The next job is for them to learn the rest of what Christ has revealed of himself in the scriptures.
May 28, 2009 at 7:04 pm
wrf3
We are saved by grace, not by our knowledge.
May 28, 2009 at 8:25 pm
jamsco
Not by our knowledge, but by our belief –
Mark 1:15 (Show me Mark 1)
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Acts 19:4 (Show me Acts 19)
And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”
May 29, 2009 at 6:48 pm
wrf3
Not by our knowledge, but by our belief…
I once asked a class of teenagers, “Are we saved by faith or by works?” I went around the class and asked each one what their answer was. “Faith.” “Faith.” “Works.” “Faith that works.” My daughter was the last to be asked. Her answer was, “It’s a trick question.” “How is it a trick question?”, I asked? (yes, we had recently watched “My Cousin Vinny”) “It’s a trick question”, she replied, “because we aren’t saved by faith or by works, but by grace.”
Faith is the result of being saved; not the cause. “Not by human will or effort but God who has mercy.” [Rom 9:16]
May 29, 2009 at 10:58 pm
jamsco
To say that we are saved not by faith, but by grace is like saying ‘we didn’t get here by car, but by gas’.
The grace of God makes certain things possible, but what does it make possible? That we have faith.
Let me ask a question – do you think a person who says “I defy Jesus and I will not obey him” is going to Heaven?
I hope you say No. If this is the case, then you think there is something that you think people need to believe.
But if you think that person might go to heaven, then what is the Gospel?
May 30, 2009 at 12:23 pm
wrf3
To say that we are saved not by faith, but by grace is like saying ‘we didn’t get here by car, but by gas’.
No, it isn’t like saying that at all, because you are treating the car and the gas as two separate systems; grace is both the car and the gas (as well as the driver).
Let me ask a question – do you think a person who says “I defy Jesus and I will not obey him” is going to Heaven?
That’s totally up to God and not me. Just like there are people who thought they were doing what Jesus wanted them to do, and He will say to them, “I never knew you.”
I hope you say No.
You see that I didn’t.
But if you think that person might go to heaven, then what is the Gospel?
It’s so that we know who is the car, the gas, and the driver. But, as I said before, we aren’t saved by our knowledge.
May 30, 2009 at 10:01 pm
jamsco
So if you have a child who asks you, what must I do to be saved, what do you say?
May 31, 2009 at 5:51 am
wrf3
So if you have a child who asks you, what must I do to be saved, what do you say?
“Believe on the Lord Jesus …” [Acts 16:31]
After all, one doesn’t teach relativity first, and then algebra and calculus second.
May 31, 2009 at 10:06 pm
jamsco
So what would you tell a more advanced person if they asked the question?
June 1, 2009 at 2:27 pm
wrf3
I can’t reply below, since there’s no facility for it. So replying where I can…
So what would you tell a more advanced person if they asked the question?
I would tell them that they phrased the question incorrectly. Salvation is not the result of man’s doing; hence the “what must I do” is the wrong question to ask.
June 1, 2009 at 3:48 pm
jamsco
So you would say “Just hope you are?”
June 1, 2009 at 10:11 pm
wrf3
So you would say “Just hope you are?”
If you trust what (you think) God has said, what else can you do but hope He will fulfill His promise?
June 2, 2009 at 8:26 am
jamsco
Yes, Yes. But to whom do you think God makes the promise of Salvation?
June 2, 2009 at 8:30 am
jamsco
And by that I mean, what is true about those people to whom God has made the promise of salvation?
June 2, 2009 at 5:35 pm
wrf3
… what is true about those people to whom God has made the promise of salvation?
They will be saved. Not the answer you want, since I think you want to find some way to identify them now, instead of in the hereafter. All I can give is my expectations (like, “they believe the gospel”), but I won’t put any money on God not turning my expectations upside down.
June 2, 2009 at 4:54 am
Chris
I’m not sure how I would answer my children since they are older now, and it is not a question that they asked. When they were preschool age and we would be going through their Bible story book or when we watched a dramatization of the Easter story on television, I explained to them that Jesus is God and that he died on the cross to take the punishment for the things they did wrong–their sins, and that if they were sorry for all the wrong things they did and asked forgiveness, then Jesus would take all of their sins away, forgive them, and make them part of his family. I asked them if they were sorry for the wrong things and if they wanted to ask Jesus to forgive them, which they did in their own little preschool vocabulary prayer. I know people have different opinions about this, but it is just what we did.
Now if you ask them when they were saved, they will not point to those preschool moments. One describes an altar call in a kindergarten or first grade chapel service. Two others describe an invitation to accept Jesus as Savior in a church class.
Only God knows at what point the kids had true understanding of the Gospel–at preschool age, elementary school age, or some time thereafter.
After thinking about it for a day, although I have thought about it at different times in the past, these are the things that I think are essential to understand for a person to be saved:
Jesus is a real person and did all of the things that the Bible says he did.
Jesus is God and never sinned. He died on the cross to take the punishment for our sins.
I can do nothing to take away, or make up for, my sins. Only Jesus could do that.
My own sins must break my heart and cause me to turn to Jesus for forgiveness. (I realize that this is something that I do, rather than something I believe, but since part of the post asked about what we must do to be saved, I included it.) While it is true that Jesus does the saving, so in a way there is nothing that we do, it is still true that one of the things Jesus does to save us is make us realize our sinfulness so that we can turn to him for forgiveness.
The bottom line for me is this. If God causes someone to be born again, he will certainly show them all the things that are true about himself, and they probably aren’t going to learn it all at once. Apollos is an example of someone in the Bible who believed and was saved, but didn’t understand all of the Gospel completely. Priscilla and Aquila showed him some of the things he believed that were inaccurate.
So, while it is true that we should not judge people, there is nothing wrong with talking to someone who seems misinformed about what the Bible says, and in this way possibly help them see some things that they may not have realized.
And if someone seems to be skipping along through life thinking that they are going to heaven because they are a pretty good person, or something like that, it is certainly not judgmental to talk to them about the scriptures that make it clear that is not possible. It is not judgmental; it is merciful.
June 2, 2009 at 8:27 am
jamsco
Chris, this is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. And I generally agree with everything you said. Thanks.
June 2, 2009 at 8:35 pm
jamsco
Do you have any biblical reason to believe that God has given us no certain way to know who is saved?
June 3, 2009 at 4:07 pm
wrf3
Do you have any biblical reason to believe that God has given us no certain way to know who is saved?
Sure. “From faith to faith, the just shall live by faith.” (not certainty).
“And without faith it is impossible to please God, for whoever would approach him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” (not know that He exists and rewards…”)
June 4, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Barth Netterfield
I am wrong about a great many things, but unfortunately, I don’t know what they are.
-Salvation is not by bubble test.
-Sin is punishment for not thanking God and giving him glory.
-Salvation means salvation from sin, not just salvation from the consequenses of sin.
-If, in heaven, I acted like I act now, I would make heaven a worse place.
-Without the grace of God, I am powerless to stop sinning.
“Lord, I believe… forgive my unbelief.”
“Who then can be saved?”
“With man, it is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.”
June 4, 2009 at 10:27 pm
jamsco
Barth, do you have a blog? If not, you should.
You make several statements, but do you have an answer for my question?