You are currently browsing the daily archive for November 30, 2007.
Everything I Ever Needed To Know I Learned From The Magician’s Nephew By C.S. Lewis
The dumb beasts who I have not chosen are yours also. Treat them gently and cherish them but do not go back to their ways lest you cease to be talking beasts. From out of them you were taken and out of them you can return. Do not so. *** What you see and hear depends a good deal on where you are standing: It also depends on what sort of person you are. *** Now the trouble with trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. *** If a fellow can’t trust his nose, what is he to trust? *** A chap don’t exactly know till he’s been tried. *** Perhaps it is best not to ask too many questions. *** You can’t be too careful in these magical places. You never know what may be watching you. *** I don’t care much about living on and on after everyone I know is dead. I’d rather live an ordinary time and die and go to Heaven. *** Oh, Adam’s sons! How cleverly you defend yourselves against all that might do you good. *** Be just and merciful and brave. The blessing is upon you. *** That is what happens to those who pluck and eat fruits at the wrong time and in the wrong way. The fruit is good, but they loathe it ever after. *** Things always work according to their nature. *** When things go wrong, you’’ find they usually go on getting worse for some time; but when things once start going right they often go on getting better and better.
Responses to Vox
In verse 9, God’s statement that “now the cry of the Israelites has reached me” clearly implies that it had not reached Him prior to that moment. I ask TRP, did God previously know about their suffering prior to hearing that cry? And at which point did He become concerned about their suffering, prior to hearing that cry or as a result of it?
I would say that God knew before creation the exact amount of suffering the Israelites would experience. He had concern for it throughout their suffering and this quote from God states that this is the time that he is going to do something about it.
Now that’s a lot, but I suspect that you are thinking that there was some suffering that God was unaware of it until this point (if not, just correct me). If you need proof that this is not the case I’ll go back to the same psalm -
Psalm 139:4 – Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.
This says that God knows what we are going to say, before we say it. Assuming that any Israelite vocalized his dissatisfaction of his treatment at the hands of the Egyptians, God knew it at that point at the latest.
Another thing to add to your list of thing that God knows.
But if you don’t think God knew that the Israelites were going to suffer before it happened, you should consider Genesis 15:13 – “Then the LORD said to him, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years.”
And Nate, please note that this is one of the majority of God’s predictions where the thing he is predicting was to be done by someone else.
24 “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
I ask TRP, is this prophetic warning an if/then statement or not? Was it possible for the Israelites to not defile the land and therefore not be driven out? If not, then why did God pretend to offer the Israelites a choice when He was actually planning to cause them to defile the land and cause it to vomit them out?
This prophetic warning was an if/then statement. From the perspective of the Israelites it was clearly possible for them not to defile the land. From God’s perspective, he knew what they were going to do, so no, in that way, it was not forever possible. But he did offer them a real choice to obey and for some time (too short) they did obey. I’m sure this warning encouraged them to obey as long as they did. And no, God was not pretending. Nor has he ever.
12 “I have taken the Levites from among the Israelites in place of the first male offspring of every Israelite woman. The Levites are mine, 13 for all the firstborn are mine. When I struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, I set apart for myself every firstborn in Israel, whether man or animal. They are to be mine. I am the LORD.”
The significance here requires a reference to Exodus 12:23. When the LORD goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.
Now, who struck down the firstborn, the LORD or the destroyer? Are the LORD and the destroyer one and the same? This is an extremely important question, as it cuts to the very heart of the sovereignty issue and has important ramifications for the capacity/action aspect of the debate as well.
As I look, I see that people are unsure who the destroyer is, but I would say that the destroyer was an angel working on God’s behalf. Psalm 78:49 says it was “a band of destroying angels”. And there are several verses (Ex. 11:4-5, Ex. 12:12-13, 23, 29,Ex. 13:15,Num. 3:13,Num. 8:17,Num. 33:4,Ps. 78:51,Ps. 105:36, Ps. 135:8,Ps. 136:10) that indicate that it was God who did the work. So assuming the destroyer was not God, the correct answer to the question ‘which one’ is ‘both’. (And thanks to for Bob for helping me find these verses)
Rebellion Against the LORD
26 But you were unwilling to go up; you rebelled against the command of the LORD your God. . . .
Did the people of Israel rebel against the Lord’s command or not? Was it God’s will that they rebel against Him or was it their will? Was it God’s original plan for Moses and the people of Israel to enter Canaan or did He always intend for them to die in the desert? Was God genuinely angry, or was He merely pretending to be angry for the purpose of making the puppet show seem more convincing to the puppets whose strings He was pulling?
They did rebel against the Lord’s command. Do you need me to go into the idea of the two wills of God? It was God’s permissive will that they rebel against him and it was their free will that they rebel against him. It was God’s original plan for them to die in the desert. God made it happen because it would glorify himself or help all things work together for those who love him. But the Israelites were sinful and responsible for their sin and God was genuinely angry at them for it.
Again, it’s not good enough to call these ideas crazy, illogical, or ridiculous. Show me the Bible verses that show I’m wrong.
And regarding your repeated statement that there are “literally hundreds of verses that are equally relevant and similarly supportive of the Open View position.” This comment will carry more weight when you show that these verses support your view.