To those of you who say that Calvinists, Omniderigists, Sovereignty of God types deny free will. . . .
Bring it. Show me an example of this. And don’t just say “Well, you should talk to my hyper-Calvinist uncle.” – I would like to see an actual quote.
Here’s the problem – sometimes when people say something that sounds like they are rejecting free will, they are rejecting the idea that a human can do something outside the will of God. I, in fact, reject the idea that a human can do something outside the will of God. But I strongly believe that humans have free will – as in they make their own choices. I’m also pretty sure that all of my sort do as well.
So this is what I want: a quote from someone (that we can see – like on the internet, or a typed out quote from a book) where a Christian rejects that’s people have free will.
The Responsible Puppet 
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February 7, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Starwind
Surely the following could not have escaped your notice.
Freewill Offerings and Human Freedom – Vincent Cheung:
Dominic Bnonn Tennant:
Dominic Bnonn Tennant:
Here is Sproul:
Beyond Bnonn’s equivocations previously noted in my “debate” with him, “free will” is a topic rife with false premises based on semantics.
Sproul focuses entirely on moral choices, arguing that the unsaved, untransformed person has no free will to make a moral (as opposed to immoral) choice. Yet Sproul ignores a-moral choices like which color socks to wear, or if someone makes a moral choice (to give to a charity) Sproul will argue it doesn’t count as “moral” because without faith nothing can please God (but even though God was displeased, the unpleasing moral choice was still freely made).
There are the libertarian, metaphysical, relativistic moral/sinful etc. qualifiers that inevitably get prefixed, all the while asserting “free really means free”.
And then there are the tiresome strawmen and red-herrings like “man can not freely will himself to fly” or “man is not free from God’s judgement or intervention” – duh.
The entire doctrine of irresistible grace is premised on man not being free to choose otherwise, and those who do choose otherwise were not the recipients of irresistible grace, because God makes some vessels for dishonor, etc. which is a tautology.
I don’t care to get into a debate, again, on this, but you asked for some examples: the above point the way. If you find them inadequate examples, and would be more precise as to what what kind of examples you seek, I may be able to suggest some others.
February 8, 2008 at 12:04 am
jamsco
These are good examples, Star Wind. I do not find them to be inadequate examples, since I think they help prove my point that those of the reformed mindset believe in free will to a certain extent, just not in a way that satisfies non-calvinists, who espouse free-will that is not subjugated to anything.
Calvinists believe that humans are not robots and responsible for their actions – is all I’m saying.
February 9, 2008 at 10:50 am
Starwind
You seem to imply by your challenge (“Bring it. Show me an example of this. And don’t just say “Well, you should talk to my hyper-Calvinist uncle.” – I would like to see an actual quote.“) that examples did not exist. And you take my examples as good ones that prove your point.
So, I’m perplexed as to what you think disproves your challenge. Would you kindly explain what kind of example you thought does not exist? Make up a hypothetical, if need be, which you think would have disproved your own point. I’m just trying to understand your distinctions between what, in your own opinion, would prove vs disprove your own point.
February 9, 2008 at 7:07 pm
bethyada
jamsco, I actually find it quite hard to see what Calvinists think at times. You ask for quotes but the very defences seem to imply it logically.
It is clear that you place the blame of sin at men’s feet, but you also claim that absolutely nothing can be done outside of God’s will in the sense of an omniderigent God.
But a God who plans our very actions down to the movements of every electron in our brain does not seem very consistent with men being free to choose and act.
Being free to choose and act means that we have the ability to make some decisions and some actions that God would wish that we did not do.
Note that this does not mean that we can think any thought or do any action. God can limit both, and we only exist because he allows it.
Freedom to me means that I can face 2 options, God can wish I did one, I can know that and choose to obey him or not obey him, yet God still wishes that I obey him and I really can do either action.
If you agree with that, I don’t think it matter what we label ourselves as we are on the same page.
February 10, 2008 at 4:25 pm
jamsco
Starwind – I guess I’m looking for a quote from a reformed guy which says – “I don’t believe in free will no matter how you define it.” Scott Adams (The Dilbert Guy) would say something close to this. So would other atheists – I’m lead to believe.
I was just writing it as a counter to the less precise free-willers who say that of Reformed types. What I think is actually the case is that they (reformed guys) don’t believe in ‘Libertarian Freewill’ as in your in quote. Does that help?
And again, I thank you for your quotes.
February 10, 2008 at 4:29 pm
jamsco
Bethyada:
“But a God who plans our very actions down to the movements of every electron in our brain does not seem very consistent with men being free to choose and act.”
Yes, that is correct – it doesn’t SEEM very consistant. I agree. It doesn’t make sense. But neither does the Trinity, or the incarnation, or (to some) the Gospel.
My thought is that sometimes we have to look past our own logic and look at what Scripture says.
February 10, 2008 at 4:30 pm
jamsco
And also regarding “Freedom to me means that I can face 2 options, God can wish I did one, I can know that and choose to obey him or not obey him, yet God still wishes that I obey him and I really can do either action.
If you agree with that, I don’t think it matter what we label ourselves as we are on the same page.”
I do agree with that – I just believe other things that you don’t agree with.
February 10, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Starwind
I guess I’m looking for a quote from a reformed guy which says – “I don’t believe in free will no matter how you define it.”
Try this fellow:
http://reformedapologist.blogspot.com/2006/03/word-or-two-about-free-will.html
I don’t agree with him, and I think he ought to switch to decaf, but he is arguing that not even choosing my color of sock is free, essentially because some precursor causes me to choose, my choice is not free.
February 11, 2008 at 11:38 pm
jamsco
Okay, I’ve read the quote a couple times and I’m not exactly sure what he’s getting at, but I think you are right. He appears to be denying that free will exists.
Like I say, I’m not entirely sure, but Starwind, I think you may have disproven my general thesis.
I suppose I should read more of his stuff, but I don’t have time right now.
February 12, 2008 at 11:31 am
Starwind
Like I say, I’m not entirely sure, but Starwind, I think you may have disproven my general thesis.
’twasn’t my intent, though I’m not certain what your “general thesis” was.
Regardless, I wouldn’t put much weight on the above or any arguments which primarily lack strong scriptural support and secondarily lack hard science that indicates determinism in human thought. Otherwise, “philosophical” arguments just aren’t authoritative.
You might consider refining your thesis before abandoning it altogether.
February 12, 2008 at 4:22 pm
jamsco
Starwind,
My basic thesis here was that there wasn’t any calvinist/compatibleist that didn’t believe in free will (even free will under God’s will). As best as I can understand it, you found a counter example.