. . . More specifically, our children’s romantic future.
I’ve got a few years before I put this in play, but I am thinking about something I’m going to start telling my kids in their teen-age years (i.e. before they start Dating/Courting).
It would go something like this:
Asking someone to marry you, or saying ‘Yes’ to a proposal is a pretty big step, and a pretty strong commitment, but during your engagement period, even if it’s the day before your wedding, we will support you if you really want to break off marriage plans.
We might encourage you to rethink your decision, and suggest that maybe you are just getting cold feet, but if in the end you don’t want to get married to this person, for whatever reason, we will support this decision.
But (and here is the main point), once you get married, if things go bad, we will not support your decision to divorce your spouse, except for extremely extreme reasons*. We will encourage you in a hard marriage, we will protect you in a dangerous marriage, we might encourage temporary separation, we will pray for your marriage and we will hold you and cry with you. But we will not say that it is okay for you to end the marriage.
So it will not be grounds for divorce (from the perspective of our family) if you feel like your spouse doesn’t love you anymore, or isn’t really a Christian, or is abusive, or is a workaholic, or really bad with finances or lazy or mean or whatever.
(Again, I would tell them this before they find The One, so they don’t think it’s about that person.)
What do you think? Too harsh?
I feel like I want to get them to agree in writing that we are reasonable in saying this. But that may be a little over the top.
*The big question is, what would be the extremely extreme reasons. Severe Physical abuse? Only unfaithfulness? Pastor John wouldn’t even agree to that as a reason for divorce.
The Responsible Puppet 
19 comments
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October 2, 2008 at 12:15 am
Marie
I have thought a lot about the abuse issue, and have concluded that abuse is a justifiable reason for divorce, under the 8th commandment.
If you can kill a man in self-defense, you can divorce him, I think.
Thoughts?
October 2, 2008 at 8:37 am
jamsco
Thanks for the comment, Marie
This, of course is a hard issue. My thought is that when a wife has to make a decision “It’s him or me”, that is a decision which must be made right now in the interest of self preservation, which is a godly goal.
But advising someone with a violent husband to not get a divorce doesn’t necessarily go against that person’s self preservation. I think a godly adviser would suggest separation, with many people praying that the man might get biblical couseling and change his heart and get a real relationship with God.
This separation would be temporary, but it may be very long. It might even last until one of the spouses dies. But the goal is always to renew the marraige.
In short, I think it’s arguable that in God’s eyes divorce is worse than killing someone in self defense.
And, yes, I know . . . easy for me to say.
But do you agree with the general spirit of this post?
October 2, 2008 at 9:13 am
Molly Piper
This is a scary prospect as a parent. Goodness…. To watch your child be hurt, disappointed, miserable even, but stand behind what you believe Scripture teaches.
I agree with the general sentiment of the post and hope that I’ll be strong enough to enact it if that kind of pain ever enters our family.
October 2, 2008 at 11:34 am
jamsco
Agreed, it is scary and would require strength.
But my hope in telling these things to my kids is that it will encourage them to take a harder look at those they are romantically involved with, and so possible prevent this for happening.
October 2, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Greta
I agree with the general sentiment too.
All in all, this “plan” seems to be the most wise and the best way to impart wisdom to your children in the particular case of being engaged.
I think you stressing all this and, perhaps, going over the top will convey the seriousness of the situation to your kids.
October 3, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Chris
I think you are very wise to have thought of this, and I agree you should talk about it before they become involved in a romantic relationship. And you have made a lot of us think about this whose kids are closer to it than yours. Our youngest kids are teenagers, so this is very timely for us.
Kids have a way of sometimes catching us off guard no matter how diligent we think we are in keeping up with the things we need to talk about. We had talked about relationships with our kids as they were approaching middle school, but I guess we thought our son would just come to us and tell us he liked a girl, and then we could talk more thoroughly. It didn’t happen that way. We go to a large church where kids meet lots of kids who also have friends at other big churches, and he and a girl began liking each other just before high school.
We had heard about courting and think it’s a good idea. Yet we didn’t know if we would expect that exact system since we know lots of people who had healthy, Christian relationships who did not approach it exactly that way.
So we had not said, it must be this way. Many people do, and I don’t think it’s wrong of them to say that, but I just think it’s hard to tell someone not to like someone when, as they get to know them, they well, they just like them. So we talked more about how to be friends, how to guard their hearts, respect the other person, not get physically involved and those types of things.
I agree that divorce is worse than death, yet If someone’s heart grows hard toward another, I certainly think it is better for them to divorce the spouse than to kill them.
I agree strongly with all the other things you said, except I am just not sure about the abusive relationship. I do think it is better for a person to stay separated from an abusive person rather than divorce them, yet I think that in cases where marriage gives the abusive person some rights that can put the victim in danger, it may be better for them to divorce. The Bible does say that we should rescue the oppressed. That may not necessarily mean divorce, but in some cases it may. And I think that abuse would be the only extremely extreme reason there could be for a divorce, at least than I can think of.
As for putting it in writing, having something written in a particular place can keep it fresh in our minds, so that might be a good idea. As for them having to agree that you’re reasonable, I think that might be counterproductive because even if they didn’t agree, you would still be reasonable and they would have to accept your conscience whether they agreed or not. You are growing them up with the Bible, so chances are they are going to see your point of view. If for some reason they have a hard time with this, I think your prayers will do more to help them see the truth than a forced agreement (forced only if they disagree–so why put them in that position).
God bless you as you lead your family through these important things in life…
October 4, 2008 at 9:36 pm
jamsco
Chris, good comments.
Next time you have a comment this long, you should turn it into a blog post. It makes for good reading.
February 1, 2010 at 10:15 am
Nicole
I linked over from the stuff christians like blog, so I know i’m late on commenting on this particular post, but . . . .eh!
I agree with your sentiment, but being divorced myself, I want to add my 2 cents here. I think that every situation has it’s unique circumstances and to say that there’s only 1 or 2 things from a certain list that you will support a divorce for is premature. My parents and my ex-in-laws did not support the decision of my husband to leave me and carry on an affair after the birth of our son. They did all of what you said above: prayed, counseled, helped when needed, etc. I read the book “love must be tough”, followed it’s advice and ultimately, I was the one who filed for a divorce. I wanted so desperately to restore my marriage, but after a year of fighting for it and praying without my husband working, felt God’s permission to let go. My husband wasn’t coming home and God told me to move on. My parents were the best through the whole ordeal and never criticized the decisions I made. They supported me when I said I wanted to save my marriage and helped find a lawyer when I knew it was over.
I agree, God hates divorce. But when we start comparing sins, we trap ourselves into feeling better than we are. Sin is sin. To God murder is the same as gossiping. We have all made mistakes and everyone sins. And it all can be forgiven. I’ll probably tell my son something like this when he gets of age:
“Marriage is a covenant that God blesses. It’s work, hard work. You’re not going to feel in love 100% of the time. You may not even like each other all the time. There will be others you will be attracted to. You will encounter heartache. If this is the one you’re choosing, commit 100% of yourself. And pray all the time. God will be your strength even if you can’t feel Him. He hates divorce. And when your father and I went through it, it crushed me. Divorce affects everyone you’re close too. So be sure. Be confident that this is the person who God has chosen for you. And know that God loves you and I love you. NO MATTER WHAT.”
February 1, 2010 at 11:13 am
jamsco
Nicole, thank you for your comments. Here are my responses.
1. It is very good to have someone commenting here who has been through this. It brings it from mostly theoretical to real life.
2. I am almost completely ignorant of what it would be like to live in a failing marriage.
3. It looks like you did very well (i.e. it was a Godly act) to stay in your marriage as long as you did.
4. It may be that if I heard your whole story, I would agree that it was right for you to get a divorce.
5. Defending myself, I’ll state that I hope that this post didn’t make me look like I think divorce is a worse sin than others. I didn’t mean for it to. Even if a divorce after years of trying to make it work is sinful, it is quite possibly a less damaging causing sin than gossiping.
6. Yes, I’m in full agreement that children need to be told that their parents and their God will love them no matter what happens. Being a supporting parent is extremely important.
7. You message to your child looks spot on.
February 1, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Ann
I too linked over from the “stuff Chrisians like” blog. A condensed version of my story: I was raised by two loving Christian parents and was taught from a young age that divorce is wrong… wrong WRONG! I went to a Christian college, but still found myself single in my late 20’s and panic started to set in… ‘will I ever find ‘THE ONE’??’ (sidenote- no, I’m not ugly!) At 29 I met a nice Christian guy who wanted to pursue the ministry, but he was divorced with a young daughter. I threw aside all of the silly ‘rules’ that I had about who I would date when I dated him b/c he was divorced…. and with a child.
We married quickly – within a year, and our marriage was rough from the start. The daddy/ daughter thing is a close bond, and it’s hard to start a marriage with little or no time to just be a couple. We are both passionate, but strong willed, so when it was good – it was really good, but when it was bad — whoo – watch out.
Fast forward a couple of years, and my husband says that he wanted a divorce repeatedly. He was bullying me – hitting me – breaking things, until I finally caved in and moved out like he wanted w/ him promising to ‘work on us’ if I would move out. Four months later, I was still calling him and trying to work on it, but he was cold. I went over to where he was living, while he was gone and discovered that he was living with another woman. I felt so naive and stupid that I hadn’t seen this before.
I did a 180 turn, and completely stopped pursuing him. Also, I was in Christian counseling and was really fortunate to have the wise Godly counsel of a non-family member. I
I remember everyone in my family kind of wanting me to ‘move on’ and file for divorce. I was so heartbroken, that I just did not know what to do. I kept hanging on b/c my counselor said this, “do you want a divorce?” and I said no, I still love him and want him to get right w/ God. He said, “well, you don’t need to worry what everyone else thinks you should do – this is between you and God. If you want to file, the Bible is clear that you have an out, but if you don’t want to – don’t!”
Long story short, I kept praying and 4 months after I found out about the other woman, my husband called me sobbing and wanting to reconcile. We went to counseling – not as much as we needed- but we did go, and then got back together.
That was about 3 years ago, and now we have a beautiful daughter together.
I won’t say that is has been easy, or that it ever will be, but I know that God’s grace was extended to us and I am reallly grateful. As hard as it is to let go of the past, and change old habits, it’s even harder to divorce – in my opinion.
Too long – sorry, but I wanted to share.
February 1, 2010 at 12:57 pm
jamsco
Okay, I’ll admit that I didn’t expect the end of your story. I praise God.
February 1, 2010 at 5:52 pm
Bobbi
I too zipped over from SCL…it would seem you have a new following…*smile*…I like that you are thinking of this now…I put everything down on paper, not because I’d read it like a script, but because it helps me think each piece through. I have NOT been divorced so cannot share anything like the comments before me…but I did want to share about an engagement I backed out of LATE in the game…and PRAISE GOD that my parents did just what you plan to do. They didn’t understand at first…but totally supported me and walked me through the dark valley. And even when I was engaged to my now husband…before my Daddy walked me down the aisle he said something like, “I know everyone is here and you’re all dressed and everything…but if you tell me you don’t want to do this…we’ll get in the car and we’ll leave right now!” Marriage has not been easy. My sweet love works long hours…etc. etc. and my parents (again, PTL) never let me complain to them. They tell me how blessed I am…and that I need to work on my relationship to Christ to be a better wife. We have other friends…who’s parents are basically against their spouses. It makes for awful holidays. Always…support the marriage of your kids…support them to counseling if you need to…but support it. Don’t EVER say bad things about their Daddy/Mommy to your grandkids! That’s my advice!! Smiles to you…and hope you have a great week!
February 2, 2010 at 7:38 am
Kathryn Burke
Divorcing after 29 years of marriage was the most agonizing, wrenching experience of my life. As a sold-out Christ-follower, I well knew the “adultery or abandonment only” reasoning. As an evangelical, I knew the comfortable tidiness provided in compartmentalizing one’s thinking. But as a human being, I KNEW in my gut that ANY kind of abuse was destructive. My husband never lifted a hand against me, so there were no bruises or black eyes. That would have been easier! Constant, unremitting, passive-aggressive, emotional abuse is difficult to document and even more difficult to quantify the effects of. It sucked every bit of life out of me. I willingly did every possible thing I or others could think of, for decades, before exhausting my options and resorting to divorce. A wise Christian marriage counselor conceded that, in rare circumstances, when a marriage is SO broken that there seems no hope, and one spouse will not participate in the repair of it… that bringing the already-ruined vows to a close may be the only merciful solution. Should time pass, and the individuals pursue their own healing, the door may be open to remarriage to each other; this would start on new ground rather than on the broken former foundations. Reconciliation, however, is not always possible.
David Instone-Brewer, a rabbinical scholar, wrote a book that brought me to tears in every chapter. In “Divorce & Remarriage in the Church” he offers biblical substantiation for abuse to be added to the ‘adultery/abandonment’ list of sanctionable reasons. Here is a link to his website for a brief overview, but the book is a life-giving resource to own and share with others.
http://www.instonebrewer.com/divorceremarriage/
Above all, let us be compassionate in how we treat divorced brothers and sisters in the body of Christ. Thank you for your part in doing just that.
February 2, 2010 at 11:53 am
jamsco
Kathryn, it looks like you put a lot of thought into this before you took action. I commend you for this.
February 2, 2010 at 8:33 am
Kris
This is what I am going to tell my kids: If Adam, who lost a cushy job and the chance to live in Paradise because of some advise his wife gave him, didn’t divorce Eve, you have no good reason to divorce your spouse.
I would add something about marital unfaithfulness, which break’s God’s commandment but I think it would have to be habitual unfaithfulness, not a one time deal.
February 2, 2010 at 11:51 am
jamsco
That’s an interesting perspective.
As a Dad, to my sons at least, I might change this to: Adam (“who was with Eve” as she was tempted) didn’t put a stop to what the serpent was saying to her, to her great loss. Yet Eve didn’t divorce him. You don’t have as good a reason to divorce as she did.
February 2, 2010 at 6:45 pm
Zach Lorton
You’ve probably taken the time to read the load of responses that your post has generated. Allow me to add my two cents:
1. I think the “you made your bed, you lay in it” approach will work once your kids are old enough to consider dating (I would say 15, 16, 17 is when this kind of thinking might sink in better for a teenager). I don’t think it’s too harsh. If you let your kids know what expectations there are for them, they’re better equipped. And letting them know that you’ll support them through tough times will be helpful.
2. Infidelity is definitely a Biblical reason to divorce your spouse, and I would support my child’s decision to divorce if their spouse was unfaithful to them. I would try to get them to see if they felt there was any way that trust could be rebuilt and they could salvage the marriage, but if they ultimately decided they wanted to divorce, I’d support that.
3. Same with abuse, but it would depend on what kind and how severe. Like if a spouse was verbally abusive, that’s something that can be worked on through counselling. Physical or sexual abuse is another breach of trust, and one that I think goes outside of the “in good times and in bad” part of the marriage vows. True, any bad situation has the potential for turnaround, and if true reconciliation can be made, then go for it. But I believe that if a man or woman abuses their spouse, a major violation has been done, one that actually breaks the covenant they have made with one another. This one’s not as clear-cut to a lot of people, and I honestly think it depends on the circumstance, but I’ve seen too many marriages go down the toilet because a spouse refused to leave an abusive husband or wife.
4. You’re thinking about having your kids sign a statement or “agree in writing” that what you tell them is reasonable? WHY? Not only might they not remember siging it, but more importantly . . . you’re their parent! You’re not their prison warden, their attorney, or their employer, so don’t treat them like a prisoner, a client, or an employee. There’s a TON of stuff you do and say that will not seem reasonable to a teenager because they don’t have the same benefit of hindsight as you do. Just tell them what you will and won’t do, and give them the benefit of the doubt by explaining why; they will have to accept it whether they find it reasonable or not.
February 2, 2010 at 9:49 pm
Alicia
I also came over via SCL and have to add in my two cents. While I am not advocating divorce, I think abuse is a more than valid reason for seeking divorce. While I’ve never been divorced, I am married and I watched my mom suffer for years in an emotionally and verbally abusive marriage. There is a tendency to think that physical or sexual abuse are the only valid reasons for leaving a spouse, verbal and emotional abuse leave just as painful scars and cause pain as well.
Abusers can change, but if they refuse to seek counseling after the first incident of abuse then there is no way I would stick around, and I hope I instill the same belief in my own children someday. Women are killed every day by men they think will change…separation does not always work in the case of abuse.
But, those are just my thoughts. Women (and men, even if the cases aren’t as common) need to be strong enough to walk away.
February 6, 2010 at 2:28 am
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