As long time readers know, one purpose of this blog is to discuss my beliefs in how we can reconcile the Free Will of Man (which I believe in) and the Sovereignty of God (and by this I mean God’s control or ordination of everything that happens) (which I believe in).
And as I peruse my both ways category, I note that I have aimed my missives more against the Aprivistan-believers (Free willers, open theists) than the Omniderigists (Calvinists). (This is largely because I agree more with the Calvinists and because the open theists are such easy targets.)
Specifically, I note that I have put up a proof text challenge for the open-theists to consider, but I haven’t put up one for Calvinists to ponder.
So here we are:
While Calvinists are all gung ho on words like “Sovereign over” and “Ordaining” they shy away from “Causing”, being more likely to use the word “Allowed” or “Permitted”
So for example, they will say of some great sin “Oh, I wouldn’t say that God caused that man to murder the other, but he did permit it to happen.”
But being a Hyper-combatibleist (believing in more extensive free will and greater sovereignty than most Calvinists) I want to push back a little with this challenge:
Show me any passage in the Bible that says that God allowed or permitted something to happen.
Clear enough?
Because if a passage like this doesn’t exist then it would be reasonable to suggest that saying that “God allowed” anything is unbiblical. Right?
What say you?
By the way, I can think of one place you might go, but I don’t think it helps your case.
The Responsible Puppet 
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May 4, 2009 at 11:41 am
JustMakingItUp
I’m going to presume that the “place I might go” is Job, most specifically the first two chapters. A convincing case can be made for God’s permissive will here, as He “permits” Satan to persecute Job, up to some well-defined boundaries.
However, yhe wording of the passage is interesting: Satan states that if God stretches out His hand against Job, he will curse Him; God replies that Job is in Satan’s hand, within limits.
The difficulty, I think, is in the interpretation: Do we interpret this to mean that God is using Satan as His Hand, stretched out against Job? Or that God is temporarily delegating authority over Job’s property and health to Satan, permitting the persecution to come?
2 Peter 3:9 appears to state that God’s Will can be thwarted: that He is “not willing that any should perish”, though we know that many have and will. At the same time, we know that “no one can come to the Father, except the Spirit draw him”.
We are then left with the paradox: Does the will of God consist of “permissive” and “expressive” halves? Does God actively will that certain people will go to hell, or does he respect one’s decision to live without Him?
Or is it, somehow, both?
May 4, 2009 at 2:07 pm
michael
Puppet,
I am not sure I understand the challenge, but when I read about it at TurretinFan’s blog, I immediately went to the conversation Jesus, “God” “Eternal”, come in a “Temporal” dwelling on earth, had with Pilate.
Pilate, going to where we all go when we also have the power over someone else, [like you have over your blog commentors in here] tells Jesus that he has the power to destroy Him. I guess Pilate did not get the memo “before” Creation, that God predetermined that he would belly out, that yella belly!, and melt with the prospects confronting him, that he does not have tenure as the arch over the jurisdiction placed upon him by his Ceasar and he better kill Him so that you and I could have this flurry of thoughts back and forth? What say you? Who killed Jesus? God, you or Pilate? It wasn’t me man, don’t go there as I will deny any part in His death! Need I say more? 🙂
May 4, 2009 at 2:32 pm
jamsco
Re: Job
I’ve already commented on Job here:
If you can find the word ‘permitted’ in Job, you’ll have a case. I can’t see it.
There’s more evidence that God afflicted Job than Satan.
“The difficulty, I think, is in the interpretation: Do we interpret this to mean that God is using Satan as His Hand, stretched out against Job? Or that God is temporarily delegating authority over Job’s property and health to Satan, permitting the persecution to come?”
The first one.
And yes, it is both
May 4, 2009 at 2:33 pm
jamsco
michael, I would say that I caused the need for Jesus to die, but I didn’t cause Jesus to die.
That was Pilate, the roman soldiers and (on a more real and transcendant level) God
May 4, 2009 at 5:13 pm
michael
Jam, strawberry I suppose, here and if it is not clear, seach the language as it is rightly interpreted and translated, “permitted”:
Mat 8:31 And the demons begged him, saying, “If you cast us out, send us away into the herd of pigs.”
Mat 8:32 And he said to them, “Go.” So they came out and went into the pigs, and behold, the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the waters.
May 4, 2009 at 7:44 pm
wrf3
Acts 14:16: In past generations he allowed all the nations to follow their own ways… and now we can discuss the sense of the Greek.
BTW, why do you hold that man has free will? It’s obvious that he doesn’t.
May 4, 2009 at 9:25 pm
rey
If man doesn’t have free-will then those who hold that man does do so because God bound their will to do so, genius. Why are you arguing with people who you don’t believe have free-will? That is an entirely idiotic thing to do!
May 5, 2009 at 11:06 am
wrf3
You are confusing the reality with the reasons for the reality. If man doesn’t have free will, then our beliefs are fixed by God. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t have reasons for thinking the way we do. And you answered your own question. If I argue with people who I don’t think have free will, it’s because I’m bound to do so. But at least I think that I’m consistent in what I do and what Scripture teaches.
May 4, 2009 at 8:24 pm
rey
You’re arguing this so wrong that I kinda suspect you are a Calvinist pretending to not be! Look, God gave man free-will by choice and that means God allows man to do whatever he wants with his free-will. In that sense (and that sense alone) God allows evil. But what you ought to be arguing against the Calvinists is this: If I put out a hit on someone by hiring a contractor who hires another contractor who finally hires an assassin who then has his girlfriend actually make the hit for him, am I not guilty of murder any longer? I only decreed the death of this person, but contingent and secondary causes accomplished it. So, am I off the hook? Surely I must be off the hook, right? No! Absolutely not! David thought so, but God didn’t agree. The god of Calvinism is the author of evil, because he decreed the evil to take place–no hierarchy of secondary and contingent causes between him and his decree and the final perpetration of the evil can clear him, just as no amount of assassins hiring other assassins can clear you when you put out a hit on somebody!
May 4, 2009 at 8:27 pm
rey
But free-will is different, but when God gave man free-will he did not decree what man would do with it but left it up to man to decide. That’s like if you were to create a robot that could think and then not program it to do any specific thing–just let it decide for itself.
May 4, 2009 at 8:28 pm
rey
“but when” above should be “because when.” Thank you.
May 5, 2009 at 6:15 pm
wrf3
The god of Calvinism is the author of evil…
How can it be otherwise? First, God Himself says that He creates evil (Hebrew ‘ra’): Isa 45:7, esp. KJV. Second, if God doesn’t create evil then evil has existence independent of God. Yet nothing can exist apart from God. Adding the level of indirection, as in the following example of the “free robot”, doesn’t help. Third, you are making the unstated assumption that it is evil for God to create evil. It isn’t, any more than it is evil for an author to inject evil into his/her stories. We don’t think George Lucas to be evil for creating Darth Vader, for example.
So this objection does not stand.
May 5, 2009 at 8:09 pm
rey
“God Himself says that He creates evil (Hebrew ‘ra’): Isa 45:7, esp. KJV.”
Quit purposefully confusing calamity with sin. That is classic double-speak. When Isa 45:7 it is only speaking of God creating calamity as a punishment for sin, not of God as creating sin itself.
“Adding the level of indirection, as in the following example of the ‘free robot’, doesn’t help.”
Adding a level of “indirection” is in fact, exactly what the WCF does with its excuse of secondary and contingent causes not being taken away by (what they think is) God’s decree! In essence, the WCF says “God is the FIRST CAUSE of evil, but its OK because there’s a layer of secondary causes to excuse him.” That is not satisfactory. And, my “free robot” analogy is not like that at all. In fact, I am saying the same thing as James when James says that God cannot be enticed with evil nor does he entice any man to do evil. That would be a rather silly statement if God actually created and decreed evil, or pre-scripted a man to sin. James does not say “When you are enticed don’t say ‘I am enticed by God’ but rather says ‘I was pre-scripted by God to do evil.'” He doesn’t take this Calvinist approach. He says you are drawn away by your own lusts and enticed. Why is he arguing that God is not doing it, if God is indeed doing it? What he is arguing is that God has NOTHING to do with the creation of evil. God gave man free-will, but not for the purpose of doing evil–it was never God’s intention for man to do evil with free-will. When man, therefore, does evil with free-will, man is the FIRST cause of evil. But if God had pre-scripted, decreed, predestined, fated (whatever you want to call it) man to sin, then God would be the first cause of evil.
“Second, if God doesn’t create evil then evil has existence independent of God.”
Like automobiles and computers? God created matter, but he didn’t combine it into these things–we did. Evil is wholly an invention of man like these things are, as Solomon says in Ecclesiastes 7:29 “Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.” Evil is therefore, not a simple being, but composite, and it is not a naturally occurring thing, but synthetic.
May 5, 2009 at 9:03 am
jamsco
“Acts 14:16: In past generations he allowed all the nations to follow their own ways… ”
Yes, this is the counter that I mentioned in the challenge – but I think it’s problematic, because we know that God was very active in the works of the OT nations.
“why do you hold that man has free will?”
Because of the multiple verses that say to people “Choose”
May 5, 2009 at 11:10 am
wrf3
So we have to try to decide what “very active in the works of the OT nations” means.
As for the passages that say “choose”, they don’t say “freely choose”. That’s an interpolation which, IMO, Scripture forbids based on Romans 9, et. al. Too, if the command implies the freedom to choose either way, then righteousness could come by the law. It doesn’t, so the insertion of “freely” can’t be right.
May 5, 2009 at 8:12 pm
rey
“Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.” (Psalms 119:108)
The words God will read before casting each and every Calvinist into the lake of fire.
May 6, 2009 at 11:08 am
michael
Rey,
I can certainly hear that you are no evangelist nor have a Pastor’s heart.
Repent and be saved or you will find yourself hearing these words just before being cast into the lake of fire yourself!
Psa 50:19 “You give your mouth free rein for evil, and your tongue frames deceit.
Psa 50:20 You sit and speak against your brother; you slander your own mother’s son.
Psa 50:21 These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you.
Psa 50:22 “Mark this, then, you who forget God, lest I tear you apart, and there be none to deliver!
Psa 50:23 The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies me; to one who orders his way rightly I will show the salvation of God!”
May 6, 2009 at 2:23 pm
rey
But you don’t believe people have the power to repent. You say that nobody can repent. It is for this that your ilk will burn in hell–for preaching the anti-gospel. Jesus preached “Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is a hand!” You preach “You can’t repent. It is above your pay-grade.”
May 6, 2009 at 6:38 pm
michael
Rey,
can you explain just what in God Good ness you are talking about? Good night, you sound like an out of the way train without a locomotive!
May 6, 2009 at 11:16 am
jamsco
Okay, so to sum up, for those of you who are skipping to the bottom:
In one corner you have Michael, who thinks that there is no such thing as Free will.
In the other you have Rey, who (apparently) thinks Rey is going to hell for thinking this.
I agree with neither.
May 6, 2009 at 2:28 pm
rey
You botched that analysis big time. Michael is the one who says there no such thing as free-will. And it is an inevitable conclusion. Those who deny free will, by attacking the gospel and constantly seeking to turn Christians into atheists with their grotesque and demented view of God, cannot possibly go to heaven if God is truly good as I contend. But if god is truly evil as they contend, then those who believe in free will cannot possibly go to the hell that they call heaven, because their god has bound these people to believe something not true so that he can spare them forever from having to abide in his putrid presence.
May 6, 2009 at 2:29 pm
rey
“And it is an inevitable conclusion” refers to the conclusion that the other side is going to hell, obviously, not to their being no free-will, because only a warped individual would deny free-will.
May 6, 2009 at 6:51 pm
michael
Hey Pup,
I did quote this:
Psa 50:19 “You give your mouth free rein for evil, and your tongue frames deceit.
So, since you seem to know to opine it, how does quoting that mean I do not believe in “free will”. I absolutely believe in it and I am living proof of what happens when I exercise it improperly!
Am I glad for the day I read these words and repented:
Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
All I know is after reading that verse I pulled myself up off the floor after crying and weeping with tears for over an hour, I sensed a brand new understanding of just how lost and deceived I was! I don’t suppose you can know the depth of wretched depravity you are in until the Lord grabs you out of that deep pit with words on a page that come alive within your soul! Then I knew, I was lost and I am found. I wasn’t seeking after God. He sought me out and found me without any condemnation, convicted me and He continues to convict me, now daily at times.
Now, like Jesus Christ, it is my daily groan in prayer, “Lord, not my will but Thy Will be done”.
I find absolution to be refreshing when my Pastor speaks it over me. And he does continually seeing my “fellowship of men” of my Church meet every morning from 7 to 8 to talk to and bless and absolve one another!
May 6, 2009 at 2:41 pm
jamsco
Rey,
I fixed my summary, thanks for the clarification.
If I understand what Michael means by ‘No Free will’ he is saying that God chooses who will choose Christ (to put it very simply). But they are still choosing Christ.
That might still be the correct gospel, and assuming he has chosen Christ, he is saved and is not going to hell.
I recommend calming down a bit.
May 6, 2009 at 6:35 pm
michael
Hey Puppet, and just was the purpose for asking the permitting question anyway?
Like TF, I find that, at least, in here, things have turned out rather silly.
May 6, 2009 at 10:08 pm
jamsco
True enough, but I don’t think we can blame it on the permitting question. We have been far away from that for a long time.
May 6, 2009 at 6:36 pm
michael
And just what was…
those fingers if they don’t start lining up with my head I will send them to hell personally!
May 6, 2009 at 6:37 pm
michael
He chose me first, tag, you are it!
May 6, 2009 at 8:31 pm
rey
God chose everyone first, and consequently called everyone. But Christ says “Many are called but few are chosen.” There is a second choosing, and that is the one that really matters. Everyone was chosen in the first go round, and called. Now, those who respond to the call and live the Christian life will be chosen.
May 6, 2009 at 9:18 pm
michael
well rey, what does this mean then:
Mat 15:13 He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up.
May 6, 2009 at 9:38 pm
rey
The heavenly Father plants his plants via baptism, for Paul says in Romans 6:5 “if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”–therefore, when Christ refers to the Pharisees and lawyers as plants not planted by the Father, he refers to how they “rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of [John].” (Luke 7:30)
May 7, 2009 at 1:28 pm
michael
Rey,
I am not sure you and I are talking about the same plants?
Hmmmmmm?
Yes, God plants His Plants as He “Wills”.
But, what about the verse I quoted for your understanding of it then?
May 7, 2009 at 6:11 pm
rey
The Father plants people after they believe, not before. Romans 6:5 “if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”
May 7, 2009 at 6:29 pm
michael
rey,
are you finding it difficult to address the “plant” I am pointing to?
I have acknowledged you point about His “Plants”. That is not what I am pointing to.
Do you understand that?
May 7, 2009 at 7:07 pm
rey
Spit it out already if you have a point.
May 7, 2009 at 7:40 pm
michael
The point is you are unwilling to talk about the “other” plant. You are dancing around it and it is right there in front of you.
Address the point Jesus makes about the “plants” Our Heavenly Father does not “plant”. They are here all around. What do you know about them?
May 7, 2009 at 8:45 pm
rey
As I said already, the planting comes after faith not before. The planting is baptism, not the external act which is initiated by man, but the internal reality administered by God alone. When a believer is dunked in the water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, God the Father plants them into Christ, and “if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.” (Romans 6:5) The plants that the Father does not plant are those who do not believe, and here specifically Jesus is referring to the Pharisees and lawyers who “rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of [John].” (Luke 7:30)
May 7, 2009 at 8:57 pm
michael
So, rey,
I see were are getting closer. You wrote this: “…..The plants that the Father does not plant are those who do not believe, and here specifically Jesus is referring to the Pharisees and lawyers who “rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of [John].”….”
There is nothing new under the sun and those same Pharisees and lawyers are still here!
Another way Jesus pointed to it is the parable of the wheat and weeds.
May 7, 2009 at 8:58 pm
michael
“we are”! getting closer! 🙂
May 7, 2009 at 8:58 pm
michael
I suppose you are not paedobaptist, huh?
May 8, 2009 at 1:45 pm
rey
One of the main differences between the Old Testament and New Testament according to Hebrews 8:11 quoting Jeremiah 31:34 is that under the Old Testament people entered the Covenant not knowing God and had to be taught by their brothers and neighbors in the Covenant “know the Lord” since they did not know him when they entered the Covenant (since they entered as infants). But Jeremiah prophecies that this will no longer be the case in the New Testament, for No more shall every man teach his neighbor and brother in the Covenant, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. Nobody enters the New Covenant until they know the Lord.
May 8, 2009 at 1:57 pm
michael
what’s the limits Jamsco? Can I go farther with this paedo position?
May 8, 2009 at 2:26 pm
jamsco
I’ve lost track. Can you sum up the paedo position
May 8, 2009 at 5:44 pm
michael
Simple, we baptise babies in my Church! 🙂
May 8, 2009 at 6:29 pm
rey
So, where are you going with this, exactly? Are you about to argue that the fact of your church being too illiterate to understand Hebrews 8:11 and Jeremiah 31:34 proves that human beings don’t have free-will? Please don’t embarrass yourself.
May 8, 2009 at 6:51 pm
michael
Rey, and Jam,
consider that post above as my summation.
I have nothing more to say.
May 9, 2009 at 9:29 am
rey
Good, because your position is unscriptural dribble.
May 9, 2009 at 8:40 am
Chris
I didn’t read all of the comments, but I thought that it’s true that we have free will, and with that free will we will always choose sin unless God intervenes and opens our eyes to see the truth so that we can believe in Him and repent…
May 9, 2009 at 9:28 am
rey
If it is true that we always choose sin, why do atheists refrain from cheating on their wives? Why did King Herod hear John the baptist gladlay and do many things he taught (Mark 6:20)??? Your position is just unscriptural and unrealistic sophistry that takes a Calvinistic position and pretends to rectify it with reality by lying.
May 9, 2009 at 9:29 am
rey
gladlay = gladly
May 9, 2009 at 10:16 am
Chris
People refrain from sin for many reasons–not all of them are loving and biblical.
Before I was a Christian, I chose to be abstinent as a single girl, not because I cared about God or my future marriage, but because I didn’t want to get pregnant as a teenager or young, unmarried adult or get an STD.
An atheist may choose not to cheat on his wife because he really loves her. Yet, if we reject God, even our way of “loving” people is wrong.
Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life.” So as unbelievers, when we reject God, we are rejecting truth and life. The Bible tells us that God is love, so if we reject God, we are rejecting true love.
I wish that Calvinists and free will believers did not get so upset with each other and just acknowledge what is written all over the Bible. God is the author of our faith. We can take no credit for having faith or doing anything by faith. The Bible also says that we must repent of our sin and turn to Jesus. It is something that we actively must do. There is something God does, and there is something we do. We cannot take credit for the part that we do because we wouldn’t even know what to do without God showing us and making us understand it.
On our own we always choose the wrong thing, or we choose the right thing for the wrong reason.
With God we choose the right thing, but only because his love compels us to.
Perhaps we could say that we are free, but under different influences?
May 9, 2009 at 1:14 pm
michael
Chris
great responses and may the Blessings of the Promise be upon you and your family::::>
Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will show thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
God speaks to Abram “directly” and Moses captures the essence of the scene for those of us drawn to the Word of God to receive all the Promises within by the sanctification work of the Holy Ghost. In this case the blessings I wish upon you and your family are “in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed”. So “be blessed” according to those Words spoken directly to Abram and written about “through” Moses so that we have a record to hope in, Genesis. That promise in Genesis 12 is about you too. It is received and enjoyed by His Faith at work in you, to receive and enjoy!
As for these following “famously read words”:::>
Psa 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
I CANNOT CLAIM I AM UNDEFILED OR BY MY OWN POWER AND SENSE AND SENSIBILITIES AM I ABLE TO WALK IN THE LAW OF THE LORD
Psa 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
THE ONLY ONE BLESSED TO HAVE KEPT HIS TESTIMONIES IS JESUS CHRIST. HE SOUGHT US, WE DID NOT SEEK HIM FIRST
Psa 119:3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
I HAVE DONE INIQUITY AND IF GOD WERE TO MAKE MY INIQUITIES I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO STAND BEFORE HIM OR HIS HOLY RIGHTEOUSNESS. IT IS HE WHO WALKS IN HIS OWN WAYS AND THEN IMPARTS TO ME THE BENEFITS OF PERFORMANCE, HIS NOT MINE
Psa 119:4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
I HAVE NOT KEPT HIS PRECEPTS ANY WHICH WAY, DILIGENTLY OR OTHERWISE.
Psa 119:5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
GOD HAS DIRECTED THE HOLY GHOST TO SANCTIFY ME FROM MYSELF FIRST AND THEN FROM THIS CORRUPT WORLD AND THE god OF THIS WORLD AND THE DEMONS IN THIS WORLD FULL AND BY HIS GRACE, MERCY AND PEACE I AM KEPT IN HIS STATUTES! I AM BORN AGAIN:::>
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
May 9, 2009 at 1:26 pm
rey
“An atheist may choose not to cheat on his wife because he really loves her. Yet, if we reject God, even our way of ‘loving’ people is wrong.”
When Paul says that “whatever is not of faith is sin” he does not mean that every good work done by those who don’t have faith in Christ is sin. If instead of listening to your pastor (who is clearly a minister of Satan) you would read that verse for yourself, then you would see that Paul is saying that when a Christian does something they are not 100% sure is right, that is a sin. READ THE VERSE:
Romans 14:23 “And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
IF you eat something without being 100% sure that it is not a sin to do so, then you have sinned. The “faith” mentioned here is trust in the rightness of the action, not faith in Christ. You must have absolute 100% faith (i.e. trust) in the rightness of an action, or that action is a sin to you because you are doing it not being sure whether it is right or wrong.
If an atheist, therefore, knows 100% that refraining from committing adultery is right, and does that, he is not sinning regardless of his non-belief in God.
Now, look at the absurd ignorance of your pastor and be puzzled at it and realize he is a minister of Satan not God. Doing good is never wrong! If someone does good because they love a human being rather than because they love God, that does not make it wrong. Jesus Himself said “If you give someone a cup of cold water ONLY IN THE NAME OF A DISCIPLE you will not lose your reward.” In other words, if someone was so impressed with the way a certain disciple lived, lets say Thomas, and then went and did something good just because they were impressed by Thomas’ example–Jesus says that although they aren’t Christian and don’t know nothing about God, they will not lose their reward. They will still be rewarded for that good work. Doing good for love of people is not wrong. The moron who told you that it is wrong is a minister of Satan.
May 9, 2009 at 1:41 pm
rey
See also Romans 14:5 “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”
May 9, 2009 at 2:07 pm
michael
rey,
with all do respect, you are not speaking apples to apples, in fact, you are twisting the Truth to justify your goodness and good works.
You are right in that the “Fruit” of “His” Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance and there is “no” law against such for Saint and reprobates.
Paul taught as much in his dealings with this Truth of the laws of nature themselves guide people’s consciences:::>
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
That in and of itself does not absolve you from God’s claim about you that you indeed are unrighteous and came into this world as much and even moreso now as I read your bitter replies to several of us who have chosen with our own free wills to leave comments in the combox.
Without His Faith, not your interpretation of His Faith, Chris or me or anyone God opens their ears to hear and eyes to see will not be saved from ourselves.
The work of Salvation is solely God’s Work alone.
“Righteousness”, “justification”, and “life” come not in the way of performance, but in the way of reception.
What is clearly heard in my spirit when I read your bitter words which lead back “into” spirit, is self justifying extremes because you want to perform a holier than thou dog and pony show instead of demonstrate by the Word of God in Gentleness and Meekness of demeanor that Salvation is not a work given to mankind save One, Jesus Christ alone.
You are not Him. I recommend you stop pretending to speak for Him as your world of words are not His.
Pro 17:27 Whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
May 9, 2009 at 8:10 pm
rey
“That in and of itself does not absolve you from God’s claim about you that you indeed are unrighteous and came into this world as much and even moreso…”
Nobody comes into the world a sinner. You choose to become one after you get here. Does everyone sin? Sure. I am not denying that. But everyone also has the ability to repent. You don’t have to win a lottery and win repentance as the prize. We’re not born “totally disabled” as the facts of experience show. Atheists and non-Christians do refrain from sin, by which I do not mean all sin, but clearly those who are interested in morality can minimize their sin as much as any Christian can.
Ecclesiastes 7:29 “Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.”
Calvinism is one such evil invention.
May 10, 2009 at 10:18 am
Chris
Rey, I share your discomfort with the “lottery” image that is often associated with Calvinism. That is kind of the way predestination was explained to us in the church I attended when I became a Christian, and I bristled at that. I knew that wasn’t right, and I have learned since then that this is not really the biblical predestination or Calvinism.
A lot of my misconceptions about Calvinism were corrected when I read Chosen by God by R.C. Sproul.
Of course there will always be some mystery that we cannot resolve in this life about how and why God intervenes in some lives at certain times and in certain ways that he does not in others.
The Lord intervened in my life to stop an abusive situation when I was young, as I said before, before I committed my life to Christ. I know other people who endure abuse year after year and suffer so much more. Why did he stop it for me after several months and for others after many years? I don’t know. There was nothing special about me.
Neither do I understand why he gave me an understanding of the Gospel and a willingness to come to him, but he has not done that in the same way for others.
Calvinism, or Reformed doctrines, are not evil; rather these truths that are in the Bible help us avoid the pride that comes from thinking that there was something in us that made God pleased to save us.
They also give us perseverance to keep praying and talking to people about Jesus. No matter how hostile to the Gospel they seem, the Lord can open their hearts at any time. We must never give up!
They also keep us from thinking that, and I have heard pastors who reject Reformed doctrines say this: If I can just find the right way to say it, if I can remove the obstacles from the unbelievers’ live, if I can just live rightly enough before them, if I can just use the right method, if I can make them see Jesus as he really is, they will believe. And many churches have tried all kinds of gimmicks and unbiblical methods to attract people to Jesus, but only God can open their eyes and hearts.
Knowing that there is nothing I can do to save myself is not an evil concept, nor is it an invention. It is the truth and it is the only hope that any of us have…
May 10, 2009 at 10:34 am
Chris
Also, the fact that atheists or any others do some things that seem morally or socially acceptable, that does not change the fact that they come into the world as everyone does, “without Christ…having no hope and without God in the world.”
“A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ…because by observing the law, no one will be justified.” Galatians 2:16-17
May 10, 2009 at 6:48 pm
rey
That’s not my argument. I am saying that their ability to refrain from sin shows we are not “totally disabled.” We do have the ability to repent. And, we do not need “irresistible grace.” When the gospel is preached, men can respond positively to it without coercion from God being necessary. If men prior to regeneration were truly totally dead to God as Calvinism teaches, men would be unable to refrain from sin in the least.
But I would point you to Rom 8:10 where Paul says “And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” Is your body dead right now? or is it on death row? So also, in the passage that says “dead in trespasses and sins” the word “dead” means “on death row.” Just as your body is not yet literally dead although Paul says “the body is dead” using the present tense, nobody is literally spiritually dead right now but only on death row, meaning they will be spiritually dead when they are cast into the lake of fire. But now, they have the ability to accept Christ and do not need an irresistible force to force them to.
May 10, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Chris
I agree that they have the ability to accept Christ in the sense that no one has them tied up so that they can’t turn to him. Yet without the Lord, we would not choose to repent or turn to him.
I cannot take another breath without the Lord. Neither can I understand the words on this screen. I could not understand the Gospel that I read or that was preached to me without him either. I have sat next to people in churches and auditoriums who have walked away from the invitation unmoved while others walked forward. The Lord opens our eyes and hearts to the Gospel at different times and different places.
Does the Holy Spirit put us on a leash and drag us to Jesus? No, he does not force us in that way, but without his drawing us, none of us would have come on our own. When we are born again, we want to turn from our sins and follow him.
May 10, 2009 at 8:37 pm
jamsco
Chris, you have brought sanity to this comment string. I’m grateful.
May 28, 2009 at 9:58 am
Eternally Necessary Theology – What Is It? « The Responsible Puppet
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